On the one hand, I suppose that pacifists are generally leftist so in some bizarre synaptic connection some posters can rail at all leftists as being against any war. I'm not hearing anyone who is thinking rationally say that we should get out of Iraq. What is being said is that we never should have gone in in the first place. Our reasons for going in have all proven to be false. The problem is getting out without doing even more damage. Our Plan A was to (1) bomb the hell out of Iraq and generally shoot the place up, (2)oust Saddam, (3)be hailed as wonderful, benevolent liberators, (4)sew the seeds of democracy, (5)hold an election, and (6)go home. We got through (1), (2), and (3) for about a month. Somewhere around (4) those ingrateful peasants decided that democracy was a wonderful thing as long as their faction was guaranteed to win and since we wouldn't guarantee it, we weren't really wonderful and benevolent and we were occupiers. It now appears that our Plan B is (1) bomb the hell out of Iraq and generally shoot the place up, (2) see if democracy has taken hold, (3a) if so, go home, (3b) if not, return to (1). THERE IS NO EXIT STRATEGY. THERE IS NO ATTAINABLE DEFINITION OF VICTORY. WE HAVE STAKED OUR MID-EAST POLICY ON CREATING A MODEL GOVERNMENT IN A LAND WHERE THE NUMBER OF COMPETING FACTIONS HAVE BEEN RULED UNDER ONE FLAG BY FORCE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. O.K. So the idea was to remove an evil ruling regime and establish a democracy that will be the envy of every other Islamic nation. Show them the good life by example. Make them want to adopt the democratic model of government. So, what happened in Afghanistan? We've removed the evil regime? Only in Kabul. All of the remainder of the country is under the control of one or another warlord - the same warlords who running things when the Taliban was in charge. But at least we got bin Laden - well, no, not yet. Well, that democracy example is a winner, right? Well, no - the elections were delayed for 6 months because the American puppet would lose if the election were held today. But, we'll get that beacon shining soon - just as soon as we can pry some more troops out of Iraq. I think most leftists and many rightists think that going to war in Afghanistan was totally justified and the method - getting U.N. approval and creating a large, multinational force that included some Islamic states - was the correct method. The question is why we would just drop the whole thing so as to be able to not win two wars rather than staying the course we were on. The rightists are concerned about appeasement of the fundamentalists in the middle east? What do you think they are thinking right now? We have given up in Afghanistan without attaining any of our goals. We have been held to a standstill in Iraq by 3,000 untrained soldiers. The ceasefire, if it holds, will probably result in al Sadr being allowed to keep his militia (as long as they are peaceful until after the election) and not being arrested. We sure showed him something! And, as I asked several days ago, what are we turning over on June 30? The right to self government? The right to direct American armed forces? The right to spend the reconstruction money? What are they getting and who, exactly, is getting it. Bush got us into this mess. I support staying in now that we are in, but I expect Bush (and his allies on the right) to develop a definition of victory, develop an exit strategy, and make it work. Other than more bullets and bombs, I haven't seen it.