You have shown a good amount of evidence for instance that Bush may have wanted to invade Iraq before 911 and then treated this as an established fact. Our race does not have mind readers. We do our best to weigh the evidence but we all are also the sum of our own past experiences and that makes everyone of us look at things differently. Even if we agreed on what the evidence was we would not all but the same significance on each piece if evidence. It is just absolutely impossible to PROVE what someone else was thinking. Even if we did have a mind reader to sick on bush, he would have had to have been reading Bush's mind at that past time, not now long after. Therefore when we see evidence that IMPLIES that Bush MAY have been acting on plans made before 911, it is only accurate to use words showing awareness of these human limitations. Stating things too strongly exagerated is just another kind of lying. Technicly its not lying if you believe it, and I think you do, but I also think you are lying to yourself. There are conservatives on this board who are just as guilty of overstating their conclusions. Some have shown no interest in actually using their mind. I learn after awhile not to read or respond to those. Others are quite intelligent and if I find an opening I have tried and will again to point out overstatements. Native, you know I am a liberal and in agreement with you on many points. However you are getting into too many fusses with people. You mention people not responding to your currant arguments. It is because of past arguments they have had with you. the slate is not wiped clean each time a new thread begins. They remember past arguments with you and don't want to "talk". It is not all your fault, however some of it is. If you actually want to talk with people you will have to learn how to shrug and back off. You don't have to pretend you agree with something you don't. You just have to give up on trying to MAKE everyone else agree with the only right way...yours.